Oh dear

[Baboo]

But why is it that as soon as the immigration word is uttered
words like racist and bigot seem to follow ?

Why can't there be a serious, grown up debate about immigration
including both the positives and the negatives.

It's a taboo subject.

Totally agree. George Carey has tried. Article in the Times a year or two ago under the headline, &quotIt is not racist to want a cap put on immigration&quot

[GodalmingYellow]

Just a thought - maybe she was a bigot.

If that's the case then tell her you disagree with her view point, not say she is a lovely lady then grumble to your staff about her when you think you're out of earshot.

If he thought she was a bigot, people would have much more respect for him if he'd told her to her face.

Can't agree with that. I'm sure we all have situations where we have to be polite to people to their face but slag them off to others in private. Specially when we're 'letting off steam'. That's all Gordon Brown was doing. I think it's disgraceful that something he said basically in private and in confidence has been broadcast across the country.

Completely disagree.

The episode shows how insincere Gordon Brown is. It shows him to be a bigot and a liar. It shows how he is afraid to discuss policy. It shows how little he understands the electorate. It shows how he was not listening to the voter but jumping to conclusions. It shows us that he says one thing and thinks something completely different. That makes all Labour policies potentially unbelievable as they say one thing when on camera, and something completely different behind closed doors. They simply cannot be trusted, and so many Labour politicians have been caught in similar circumstances.

Brown's explanation that he mis-understood the words is completely unbelievable. Just listening the the conversation confirms that. Brown's excuses on the Jeremy Vine show, show that he was trying to find a way to spin and wriggle out of the disaster, rather than simply accepting his cock up. I say cock up, but his actions were at the time clearly deliberate and intended, so in cock up terms it was no accident. The man is completely unbelievable.

The BBC were absoltely right to play the clip. I would go further and say they had a responsibility to play the clip. It was most definitely in the public interest.

A politician who isn't prepared to tell us what they really think is not worth voting for and cannot be trusted to do what they say they will do. Brown's days are numbered, and rightly so.

[GodalmingYellow]

[quote=&quotSnake&quot]Who cares, but just for a laugh I’ll do a Hat prediction for next week.

Labour 1, LibDems 1, Tories 1, “others

[GodalmingYellow]

But why is it that as soon as the immigration word is uttered
words like racist and bigot seem to follow ?

Why can't there be a serious, grown up debate about immigration
including both the positives and the negatives.

It's a taboo subject.

Totally agree. George Carey has tried. Article in the Times a year or two ago under the headline, &quotIt is not racist to want a cap put on immigration&quot

It should not be a taboo subject. It is made so by a combination of the political left screaming racist and deliberately mixing up immigration and asylum, and the extreme politicial right and elements of what used to be called working class/political left actually being racist, with the written media doing most of the stirring.

As someone who despises racism in any form, and wrote articles along those lines in the old Raging Bull (whatever happened to that?), I am comfortable that there is nothing racist in believing that this country's resources and services are badly over-stretched and therefore without limiting child birth, the only way to limit population growth, is to limit immigration into this country.

I love the wonderful mix of cultures we have in this country, but I think our population is too high. This country is badly overcrowded. We also have millions unemployed, so we should not need immigration, except perhaps in a few limited highly skilled sectors. What our unemployed need is training to do the jobs that we ave available.

We need much stronger border controls to prevent illegal immigration, not to mention a method of ensuring that those living in the UK illegally are actually deported.

The EU is far too weak on this subject, with some border controls in some EU countries e.g. Spain, being notoriously poor. The result being that those wishing to migrate to the UK have a much easier opportunity to do so.

We should welcome and be glad of legal immigration within the restrictions I've suggestd above. And we should be very happy with the diversity and benefits to our country that these groups bring.

There is nothing racist in any of the above. And no one should feel ashamed to discuss the subject provided they do not stray into racist territory, which is never acceptable.

[Myles Francis]

A politician who isn't prepared to tell us what they really think is not worth voting for and cannot be trusted to do what they say they will do.

Well, that rules out 95% of PPC's at a stroke!

On the subject of personal honesty, I wonder what people make of Cameron's decision not to wear a morning suit to his friends wedding the other day because it would raise memories of THAT Bullingdon Club photo?

[SmileyMan]

It should not be a taboo subject. It is made so by a combination of the political left screaming racist and deliberately mixing up immigration and asylum, and the extreme politicial right and elements of what used to be called working class/political left actually being racist, with the written media doing most of the stirring.

As someone who despises racism in any form, and wrote articles along those lines in the old Raging Bull (whatever happened to that?), I am comfortable that there is nothing racist in believing that this country's resources and services are badly over-stretched and therefore without limiting child birth, the only way to limit population growth, is to limit immigration into this country.

I love the wonderful mix of cultures we have in this country, but I think our population is too high. This country is badly overcrowded. We also have millions unemployed, so we should not need immigration, except perhaps in a few limited highly skilled sectors. What our unemployed need is training to do the jobs that we ave available.

We need much stronger border controls to prevent illegal immigration, not to mention a method of ensuring that those living in the UK illegally are actually deported.

The EU is far too weak on this subject, with some border controls in some EU countries e.g. Spain, being notoriously poor. The result being that those wishing to migrate to the UK have a much easier opportunity to do so.

We should welcome and be glad of legal immigration within the restrictions I've suggestd above. And we should be very happy with the diversity and benefits to our country that these groups bring.

There is nothing racist in any of the above. And no one should feel ashamed to discuss the subject provided they do not stray into racist territory, which is never acceptable.

Not often I say this GY, but I agree with you one hundred percent.

I work with lots of immigrants from the EU, especially Germans, Czechs and Poles. They are all great people, they all work hard, and they all make a valuable contribution to society and the tax coffers. That is indisputible.

The problem is that bringing someone in to do that job from outside is a shortcut. There are people with real long term unemployment ingrained into their culture, and they need to be brought back into mainstream society. The best way to do that is to train them to do a modern, relevant job, and then incentivise businesses to take a chance on them.

[Sackcloth Ox]

If that's the case then tell her you disagree with her view point, not say she is a lovely lady then grumble to your staff about her when you think you're out of earshot.

If he thought she was a bigot, people would have much more respect for him if he'd told her to her face.

Can't agree with that. I'm sure we all have situations where we have to be polite to people to their face but slag them off to others in private. Specially when we're 'letting off steam'. That's all Gordon Brown was doing. I think it's disgraceful that something he said basically in private and in confidence has been broadcast across the country.

Completely agree.

Well Brown should have taken the mike off ! He's finished now.

Tories will get a slim majority.

[Sackcloth Ox]

A politician who isn't prepared to tell us what they really think is not worth voting for and cannot be trusted to do what they say they will do.

Well, that rules out 95% of PPC's at a stroke!

On the subject of personal honesty, I wonder what people make of Cameron's decision not to wear a morning suit to his friends wedding the other day because it would raise memories of THAT Bullingdon Club photo?

Irrelevant. It's what you say that counts, not what you wear. You are correct on your other point. 95% of PPCs are not worth voting for.

Politics is going to be very different from now on though.

[slappy]

Was very poor of the media to broadcast a private comment from inside his car. How many of us have put the phone down and then sworn out loud at the person we've just been speaking to - and to be fair to Gordon Brown he didn't even swear.

The woman clearly was a bigot - blame the nation's problems on &quotimmigrants&quot. Where are all these Eastern European immigrants flocking from?

Reason is old bats from Rochdale believe your 3 grandchildren have a god-given right to go to university and enjoy the high life for 3 years with their i-phones and laptops and cars, (and should be paid for by the tax payer rather than student loans) with a nice middle class job waiting at the end of it, leaving a country devoid of anyone who wants to put in a shift and work hard whilst getting their hands dirty.

[GodalmingYellow]

Was very poor of the media to broadcast a private comment from inside his car. How many of us have put the phone down and then sworn out loud at the person we've just been speaking to - and to be fair to Gordon Brown he didn't even swear.

There is a big difference between a politican asking you to trust him and believe in him and his policies and then blatantly and deliberately saying the opposite in private to what he said in public, compared to being cross with your carpet fitter for phoning to say they will be late because they slept in.

It isn't just that Brown called Mrs Duffy a bigot, although that in itself was bad enough, it was that he was prepared to say something in public that he didn't truly believe, and saying the opposite in private, thereby rendering him completely insincere and untrustworthy and not worthy of your vote. It was about him not listening, not being in touch etc etc.

Whether Mrs Duffy is a bigot, are should we more accurately say racist, we will probably never know.

[Myles Francis]

A politician who isn't prepared to tell us what they really think is not worth voting for and cannot be trusted to do what they say they will do.

Well, that rules out 95% of PPC's at a stroke!

On the subject of personal honesty, I wonder what people make of Cameron's decision not to wear a morning suit to his friends wedding the other day because it would raise memories of THAT Bullingdon Club photo?

Irrelevant. It's what you say that counts, not what you wear. You are correct on your other point. 95% of PPCs are not worth voting for.

Politics is going to be very different from now on though.

No it's not. It's what you DO that counts.

And I admire your optimism about politics being very different from now on. If that were truly the case, why is my local Conservative PPC someone parachuted in from out of the area by Cameron and held up as &quotfront-bench material&quot when he has a string of failed businesses behind him?

[boris]

Whether Mrs Duffy is a bigot, are should we more accurately say racist, we will probably never know.

But is she any good at penalties?

Politics is going to be very different from now on though.

No it's not. Politics will remain just the way it always has been, with self-serving liars seeking public office to assuage their egos and fill their coffers. The way politics is presented in the media may change, the Libs may even manage to achieve some sort of compromise reform with the voting system, but the politics itself will not change while this society champions the market and self-interest ahead of equality and common-wealth.

[GodalmingYellow]

Well, that rules out 95% of PPC's at a stroke!

On the subject of personal honesty, I wonder what people make of Cameron's decision not to wear a morning suit to his friends wedding the other day because it would raise memories of THAT Bullingdon Club photo?

Irrelevant. It's what you say that counts, not what you wear. You are correct on your other point. 95% of PPCs are not worth voting for.

Politics is going to be very different from now on though.

No it's not. It's what you DO that counts.

And I admire your optimism about politics being very different from now on. If that were truly the case, why is my local Conservative PPC someone parachuted in from out of the area by Cameron and held up as &quotfront-bench material&quot when he has a string of failed businesses behind him?

Parachuting people in is a complete red herring. Labour's Guildford Branch is a PO Box ie they don't have one, at least not one I can find.

Brown parachute's candidates in all over the place. In my constituency, the candidate is from Swansea, the Guildford candidate is from Edinburgh.

If you use headline's like a string of failed businesses to make an argument, that's no better than Daily Mail politics. Most Labour candidate shave no professional experience other than as career politicians.

I don't hold a candle for a particular party or candidate, I should point out. The political system in this country is a farce, and the main parties are largely based on historical reference points, irrelevant ideals and self serving motives, rather than current relevant issues and deciding what is right for the country. For those reasons I agree with Myles that politics ain't gonna change much any day soon.

Most of the parties have some good policies and some bad policies, but because of the entrenched positions and media portrayal, parties rarely accept policies from others for fear of sign of weakness, or disturbance of vested interests.

[Myles Francis]

If you use headline's like a string of failed businesses to make an argument, that's no better than Daily Mail politics.

Why if it is a matter of fact?

The short-list of candidates was drawn up by Tory central office and was a clear, manufactured attempt to address the racial and gender profile of the Parliamentary party.

The winning candidate was portrayed as a successful entrepreneur but it has subsequently emerged that his businesses have been rather less than successful - one of which collapesd owing approximately £3m. In response he has denied being involved with one of the companies at the point of collapse despite Companies House records showing him still a director at that time. Significant numbers of the local party are not happy about this and feel that they have been duped - on top of the anger already felt at the imposed short-list.

So it's not an issue about his experience per se, but the way it has been presented in what appears to be a less than accurate light. And this is the substantive point - the expenses scandal was supposed to bring a new honesty to politics, but that simply has not happened.

Also, considering how gleefully you seized on Brown's gaffe yesterday, I find it odd that you are now complaining about &quotDaily Mail politics&quot.

[OUFC4eva]

Was very poor of the media to broadcast a private comment from inside his car. How many of us have put the phone down and then sworn out loud at the person we've just been speaking to - and to be fair to Gordon Brown he didn't even swear.

The woman clearly was a bigot - blame the nation's problems on &quotimmigrants&quot. Where are all these Eastern European immigrants flocking from?

The telling thing for me was that control freak Brown sought to immediate blame someone else (Sue Nye) for his gaffe.

How dare she have the audacity to put &quotthat&quot woman infront of me was what Brown muttered. Pathetic.

As soon as Brown is sent out to meet the real voters in this country carnage ensues. Nobody I've herd or spoken to has referred to Gillian Duffy as a bigot, FFS.