That's the administration bullet right there..."GodalmingYellow" wrote:
The biggest problem figures in the accounts is the £450k social security and other taxes.
2008 - 2009 Accounts Now Available
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Swissbloke
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Although the interest hasn't been charged it isn't at all clear that it isn't still accruing elsewhere in the accounts."slappy" wrote:Well you've all picked up the negatives.
How about ...
With effect from April 2008 WPL has not charged interest on the loan. Interest accrued between April and June 2008 of £29K has been written back this year.
The long term (over 5 years) operating lease commitment (ie stadium rent and service charge) has actually gone down by £27K.
Now if only someone would host the accounts on a website ...
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Remember this was the position 10 months ago. It is almost certain that this has now been repaid otherwise the bullet would have long since left the gun, but it would be nice to know the current bill."Swissbloke" wrote:That's the administration bullet right there..."GodalmingYellow" wrote:
The biggest problem figures in the accounts is the £450k social security and other taxes.
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I'll have a stab at some answers Ty:
1. To whom do we owe just over £1.5 million if not WPL?
A bit of a mixture - Social security (NI?) 443k, Bank 92k, Other loans 155k, Other creditors 180k Accruals and deferred income 923k - That is the one I'd like to see unpicked and explained.
2. To whom did we pay £21,000 to - Nick Merry? Why did we pay him £21,000, how much was he likely to have been on a year?
As already answered almost certainly Jim Smith
3. At what point do OxVox become uncomfortable with the level of debt and start asking some tricky questions about short term, let alone medium term plans, for the future of this club?
Very good question - Any comments Voxers?
4. How does this level of debt compare with other clubs in the conference - how about league 2 or 1?
I'd guess much worse but I don't know for sure - Anybody know?
5. Has the position got better or worse since these accounts were published?
Kelvin says not I believe but we have no way of knowing
6. What was the debt of the club when WPL took over?
It was £2 million
I think the important thing here is that at the end of 2008 we owed WPL £3.5 million which was a bad position to be in but unlikely to be fatal as Lenagan would hardly put us into administration. Since then we've lost close to another £1 million but this is spread amongst a lot of smaller creditors any one of whom could start to get difficult if we don't start paying them.[/b]
1. To whom do we owe just over £1.5 million if not WPL?
A bit of a mixture - Social security (NI?) 443k, Bank 92k, Other loans 155k, Other creditors 180k Accruals and deferred income 923k - That is the one I'd like to see unpicked and explained.
2. To whom did we pay £21,000 to - Nick Merry? Why did we pay him £21,000, how much was he likely to have been on a year?
As already answered almost certainly Jim Smith
3. At what point do OxVox become uncomfortable with the level of debt and start asking some tricky questions about short term, let alone medium term plans, for the future of this club?
Very good question - Any comments Voxers?
4. How does this level of debt compare with other clubs in the conference - how about league 2 or 1?
I'd guess much worse but I don't know for sure - Anybody know?
5. Has the position got better or worse since these accounts were published?
Kelvin says not I believe but we have no way of knowing
6. What was the debt of the club when WPL took over?
It was £2 million
I think the important thing here is that at the end of 2008 we owed WPL £3.5 million which was a bad position to be in but unlikely to be fatal as Lenagan would hardly put us into administration. Since then we've lost close to another £1 million but this is spread amongst a lot of smaller creditors any one of whom could start to get difficult if we don't start paying them.[/b]
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Can we not get the publicly published accounts of other clubs from the same source that we hot OUFC accounts from?"Mally" wrote:4. How does this level of debt compare with other clubs in the conference - how about league 2 or 1?
I'd guess much worse but I don't know for sure - Anybody know?
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I guess most people download a copy of these accounts from Companies House. However, these are always out of date, and are only supposed to be filed with 10 months of the year-end. Some clubs file abbreviated accounts which include even less information."tomoufc" wrote:Can we not get the publicly published accounts of other clubs from the same source that we got OUFC accounts from?"Mally" wrote:4. How does this level of debt compare with other clubs in the conference - how about league 2 or 1?
I'd guess much worse but I don't know for sure - Anybody know?
It is also quite a laborious task as there are 22 other clubs, and trying to make sense of what is going on with club ownership, debt, and ground issues is quite difficult.
For the record, the other clubs with problems are of course Histon, Grays, Salisbury, FGR. Wrexham also lost £1.5M last year, only rescued by selling their groundhttp://www.wrexhamafc.co.uk ... 00.html.
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
I'll put them up when I get a chance."slappy" wrote:Well you've all picked up the negatives.
How about ...
With effect from April 2008 WPL has not charged interest on the loan. Interest accrued between April and June 2008 of £29K has been written back this year.
The long term (over 5 years) operating lease commitment (ie stadium rent and service charge) has actually gone down by £27K.
Now if only someone would host the accounts on a website ...
The interest issue is actually a big negative, not the positive you would like it to be. See my later resume of the accounts.
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GodalmingYellow
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It isn't. If interest were accruing to Lenagan, it would have to have been reported in the transactions with directors note."Mally" wrote:Although the interest hasn't been charged it isn't at all clear that it isn't still accruing elsewhere in the accounts."slappy" wrote:Well you've all picked up the negatives.
How about ...
With effect from April 2008 WPL has not charged interest on the loan. Interest accrued between April and June 2008 of £29K has been written back this year.
The long term (over 5 years) operating lease commitment (ie stadium rent and service charge) has actually gone down by £27K.
Now if only someone would host the accounts on a website ...
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
Yes if you want to pay the £1 fee for each document."tomoufc" wrote:Can we not get the publicly published accounts of other clubs from the same source that we hot OUFC accounts from?"Mally" wrote:4. How does this level of debt compare with other clubs in the conference - how about league 2 or 1?
I'd guess much worse but I don't know for sure - Anybody know?
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GodalmingYellow
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GodalmingYellow
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I'll post my thoughts over a couple of messages due to text length. Sorry to those who find the length tedious, and the points I make are my personal opinion.
Essentially in terms of financial performance, there is little between the 2009 and 2008 accounts. On the face of it anyway.
There are very important differences though which give a good indication as to how the club was being run and the involvement of Ian Lenagan.
We have to remember that these are essentially last season's accounts, not this season's.
Turnover was up slightly commensurate with the then continuing (and dare I say in some cases blind) obsesson with WPL.
Direct operating costs, which in the main represents the playing staff, remained stable form the previous season. This was to be expected to some extent because of the ridiculous over-valuation of some previous players in 2008 and earlier, and the long contracts they were given. However, under a sensible management, trying to brng the club's finances in to line, I would have expected some downward pressure on these costs.
Administration costs, which will include stadium rent and rates and maintenance costs, non-playing staff, and all the costs of running the club not directly related to matches, remained stable as well, and this is disappointing, as it suggests insufficient effort being made to bring the club onto an even keel.
The result is a small gross profit and very large operating loss of almost £900k. In my personal opinion, that was nothing short of a disgrace.
Merry argued that the first season in the conference was about going all out to get back into the league at the first attempt. I didn't agree with that approach, but I can to some extent understand that some people fet it was a worthwhile risk. But to allow that position to perpetuate, I find quite shocking. We've known about the bottom line figures for some time of course, but even looking back now, I find it hard to believe that any responsible owner would not have curtailed the spending earlier.
Essentially in terms of financial performance, there is little between the 2009 and 2008 accounts. On the face of it anyway.
There are very important differences though which give a good indication as to how the club was being run and the involvement of Ian Lenagan.
We have to remember that these are essentially last season's accounts, not this season's.
Turnover was up slightly commensurate with the then continuing (and dare I say in some cases blind) obsesson with WPL.
Direct operating costs, which in the main represents the playing staff, remained stable form the previous season. This was to be expected to some extent because of the ridiculous over-valuation of some previous players in 2008 and earlier, and the long contracts they were given. However, under a sensible management, trying to brng the club's finances in to line, I would have expected some downward pressure on these costs.
Administration costs, which will include stadium rent and rates and maintenance costs, non-playing staff, and all the costs of running the club not directly related to matches, remained stable as well, and this is disappointing, as it suggests insufficient effort being made to bring the club onto an even keel.
The result is a small gross profit and very large operating loss of almost £900k. In my personal opinion, that was nothing short of a disgrace.
Merry argued that the first season in the conference was about going all out to get back into the league at the first attempt. I didn't agree with that approach, but I can to some extent understand that some people fet it was a worthwhile risk. But to allow that position to perpetuate, I find quite shocking. We've known about the bottom line figures for some time of course, but even looking back now, I find it hard to believe that any responsible owner would not have curtailed the spending earlier.
Last edited by GodalmingYellow on Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Swissbloke
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GodalmingYellow
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The actuarial deficit on pension scheme, is the reporting of an anticipated increase in future pension funding to cover club staff in the Football League scheme, which the club no longer participate in. This could be down to simple actuarial changes due to consideration of long expected life spans, or it could be due to previous underfunding, or a combiation of the two.
The club clearly signed a player, or more realistically players for whom a signing on or transfer fee was payable, which is shown as intangible assets on the balance sheet.
The total liabilities of £1,716,218 || £3,461,059 = £5.2m continues to be very worrying.
The previous bank loan as been largely redeemed, but at the expense of PAYE and VAT, shown as social security and other taxes. That is a very dangerous path to follow. HMRC are clearly taking a tough line with football clubs and club's disgrqaceful use of public money to try to achieve success that they aren't entitled to.
A debt to HMRC of nigh on £0.5m is really not very clever and shows that bills had not been paid to HMRC for quite some time. That level of debt is not 1 or 2 months, but more likely between 6 and 9 months worth of missed payments.
Other creditors of £180k is a bit too large not to to be more specific in my view. OUFC is hardly Tesco.
The £21,000 director's compensation was to Jim Smith, as thre were only 3 drectors during the period, and Jim Smith was the only one who left.
The director's loan of £10k comes from Kelvin Thomas, and is either non-payment of salary or money he has paid in personally to help the club over the difficult period just before Christmas 2008.
The accruals and deferred income is also very large and I suspect a large chunk of this is money owed to Firoka, and a large chunk is season ticket money received in advance for the current season. It's a big jump on the previous season, indicating the high level of early season ticket renewals.
The club clearly signed a player, or more realistically players for whom a signing on or transfer fee was payable, which is shown as intangible assets on the balance sheet.
The total liabilities of £1,716,218 || £3,461,059 = £5.2m continues to be very worrying.
The previous bank loan as been largely redeemed, but at the expense of PAYE and VAT, shown as social security and other taxes. That is a very dangerous path to follow. HMRC are clearly taking a tough line with football clubs and club's disgrqaceful use of public money to try to achieve success that they aren't entitled to.
A debt to HMRC of nigh on £0.5m is really not very clever and shows that bills had not been paid to HMRC for quite some time. That level of debt is not 1 or 2 months, but more likely between 6 and 9 months worth of missed payments.
Other creditors of £180k is a bit too large not to to be more specific in my view. OUFC is hardly Tesco.
The £21,000 director's compensation was to Jim Smith, as thre were only 3 drectors during the period, and Jim Smith was the only one who left.
The director's loan of £10k comes from Kelvin Thomas, and is either non-payment of salary or money he has paid in personally to help the club over the difficult period just before Christmas 2008.
The accruals and deferred income is also very large and I suspect a large chunk of this is money owed to Firoka, and a large chunk is season ticket money received in advance for the current season. It's a big jump on the previous season, indicating the high level of early season ticket renewals.
Last edited by GodalmingYellow on Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GodalmingYellow
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The debto to WP barely moved, and the movement is probably largely interest being added (up to 31 March 2009).
This shows that Lenagan had pully the plug some time earlier than many of us had previously believed.
The club was effectively funding it's massive operating loss and poor management by not paying it's PAYE and VAT liabilities, and getting season ticket money in early. Ring any bells for the current season?
The other loans I guess is from one or more concerned fans following Kelvin Thomas's plea for help.
And so we come to the shareholders loan interest. Ha bloody ha. The elimination of the £20,000 interest has nothing whatsoever to do with goodwill by WPL, in my view it is because WPL didn't want the £20,000 of interest on their Tax Returns for 2008/09, with the additional tax liability that would create for them. How do I reach this conclusion? Well, if it was a generosity or goodwill issue, they could have refused to take the interest before March 2008 as well, or they coul have simply converted some of their loan into capital. There was no goodwill gesture here in m view it was purely done for personal financial gain of WPL shareholders.
With such a large error in the previous accounts, it begs the question if the 2008 accounts should have been re-drafted. It also shows that the intention by WPL was to take the interest, before they realised that they were borrowing from themselves and paying a tax bill on it. Bonkers.
Note 13 refers to the Dean Whitehead transfer.
All in all a very sorry tale of poor management, which in my view was purely for the personal ego of Nick Merry.
Luckily for us, we have Kelvin Thomas at the helm, who claims to ave the club running at break even now. I suspect that a material chunk of the HMRC debt remains under a repayyment scheme, but if the club are now self financing, that bodes well for the future at least, provided Ian Lenagan doesn't start making unreasonable demands.
This shows that Lenagan had pully the plug some time earlier than many of us had previously believed.
The club was effectively funding it's massive operating loss and poor management by not paying it's PAYE and VAT liabilities, and getting season ticket money in early. Ring any bells for the current season?
The other loans I guess is from one or more concerned fans following Kelvin Thomas's plea for help.
And so we come to the shareholders loan interest. Ha bloody ha. The elimination of the £20,000 interest has nothing whatsoever to do with goodwill by WPL, in my view it is because WPL didn't want the £20,000 of interest on their Tax Returns for 2008/09, with the additional tax liability that would create for them. How do I reach this conclusion? Well, if it was a generosity or goodwill issue, they could have refused to take the interest before March 2008 as well, or they coul have simply converted some of their loan into capital. There was no goodwill gesture here in m view it was purely done for personal financial gain of WPL shareholders.
With such a large error in the previous accounts, it begs the question if the 2008 accounts should have been re-drafted. It also shows that the intention by WPL was to take the interest, before they realised that they were borrowing from themselves and paying a tax bill on it. Bonkers.
Note 13 refers to the Dean Whitehead transfer.
All in all a very sorry tale of poor management, which in my view was purely for the personal ego of Nick Merry.
Luckily for us, we have Kelvin Thomas at the helm, who claims to ave the club running at break even now. I suspect that a material chunk of the HMRC debt remains under a repayyment scheme, but if the club are now self financing, that bodes well for the future at least, provided Ian Lenagan doesn't start making unreasonable demands.
Thanks very much for such a comprehensive commentary - I'm sure you've got most of the main points right but I'm not 100% sure of your conclusion.
Yes Merry was responsible for where we were in mid 2008 but KT was in charge for 9 months of the period in question so he has to take the responsibility for where we ended the period.
I'm not sure if "self-financing" is the way I would describe the picture the accounts paint. I think "self-failing-to-finance" would be a better description. WPL haven't pulled the plug but they have certainly turned the taps off and the club has been left to stand on its own wobbly feet. The way I see it this has been financed by allowing other debts to increase to benevolent supporters for loans, to suppliers and most worryingly to the Revenue & Customs. I'm not so much concerned about Ian Lenagan making unreasonable demands. It's all the other creditors making reasonable demands that we ought to worry about.
KT has said that the club is now breaking even but we only have his word for this and even if true this does nothing to address the WPL or newer debts.
Where is the cost cutting and where are the new revenue generating schemes to try and turn things around? It's exactly those questions that OxVox should be asking along with the plans to repay the mounting debt.
Yes Merry was responsible for where we were in mid 2008 but KT was in charge for 9 months of the period in question so he has to take the responsibility for where we ended the period.
I'm not sure if "self-financing" is the way I would describe the picture the accounts paint. I think "self-failing-to-finance" would be a better description. WPL haven't pulled the plug but they have certainly turned the taps off and the club has been left to stand on its own wobbly feet. The way I see it this has been financed by allowing other debts to increase to benevolent supporters for loans, to suppliers and most worryingly to the Revenue & Customs. I'm not so much concerned about Ian Lenagan making unreasonable demands. It's all the other creditors making reasonable demands that we ought to worry about.
KT has said that the club is now breaking even but we only have his word for this and even if true this does nothing to address the WPL or newer debts.
Where is the cost cutting and where are the new revenue generating schemes to try and turn things around? It's exactly those questions that OxVox should be asking along with the plans to repay the mounting debt.