Wilder

[Paul Cooper]

OK we are clearly underperforming this season regardless ofthe injuries that clearly don't help.

There are the voicierous 'Wilder out' supporters who think that the credit he received after Promotion from The Confernce has now run out.

Lenegan has backed the manager to date but I suspect that things are getting close.

My question is are there any Unted supporters who still think that the manager should be given more time? I have one or two friends who are wavering a little but I suspect that most supporters tink that it is time or change.

Your views?

[SmileyMan]

I'm not a slavish fan, but if a good replacement could be found, I reckon a change might shake things up in a positive way. The big caveat is, of course, finding a 'good' replacement.

[amershamwrighty]

In the last bad spell, I was 60/40 in favour of keeping him and we had a bit of an upturn. But we have just bagged 1 point out of 9 and the minimum should have been 5, with 7 a realistic expectation.

I believe CW has tonight and Saturday to save his job because getting a new man (John Ward, Alan Knill and others are currently out of work) in place by the end of the year is important to enable some horsetrading in January.

I'm not accepting the 'injuries' excuse any longer.

[ty cobb]

I am still in the give him more time camp, I think the injury situation has and is continuing to have a big impact.

However, the league table doesn't lie and if after the Christmas period of games we have not shown a marked improvement I am likely to change my view.

Cleary where we are in the table is not good enough, it is the goodwill that his previous efforts since he joined us that is influencing my view - had he joined us at the start of last season and we had last season followed by this one I would be in the Wilder out camp.

But this is the chap who got uis out the Conference at his first attempt, I think he deserves a bit more time as a result.

[Mooro]

To me, we would represent a reasonable opportunity for managers to go for, compared to some of the other clubs in Leagues 1&amp2 (fanbase/size etc) - with many seeing us as a good prospect for gaining some concrete reward for their efforts by takinng us up a division (or two).
As such, then a good selection panel (whoever that may be) SHOULD have a choice of candidate sufficient to represent a step up in status/quality (ie. those that have managed successfully at a higher level in the past) from what Mr Wilder has delivered.
I'm not going to suggest who I would choose, but yes, the likes of Ward, Knill, Cotterill are currently out of work, as is Andy Scott for that matter, and Phil Brown, although so are Garry Waddock and Paul Ince, so it could all go pear shaped I guess. Would we be able to tempt (and pay for) someone currently working elsewhere I'm not sure, but I would be reasonably confident that there would be some decent managers in the list of those that apply......

As for the actual Wilder Out debate itself, I'm not adamant on either side, though agree with Wrighty that one lean spell is bad enough, but then a second one so soon after is quite demoralising and that any goodwill remaining from promotion (which some could argue we nearly threw away in the latter part of the season) is all but exhausted...

[A-Ro]

But this is the chap who got us out the Conference at his first full attempt, I think he deserves a bit more time as a result.

[amershamwrighty]

At the risk of appearing a proper grump, I think the 'got us out of the Conference' loyalty bit is wearing too thin.

Like it or not, this is a world of continuous improvement. Lee Clark was doing a good job at Huddersfield, but was sacked and his successor achieved promotion. John Sheridan got Chesterfield out of L2 as champions, won the Paint cup &amp got relegated and was soon out of a job. Crawley and Stevenage got out of the Conference and shortly afterwards got into L1 and are doing very nicely thank you, on crowds that are half of ours.

CW has had support from the home crowd, brilliant away support, a budget that is amongst the best at this level and Executive support.

He should have done better since May 2010.

[ty cobb]

Quote A-RoRe: Wilder
by A-Ro » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:15 pm

ty cobb wrote:
But this is the chap who got us out the Conference at his first full attempt, I think he deserves a bit more time as a result.

Grateful if you could leave my quotes as they are.

Given our league position when he took over and the points deduction which stopped us from getting in the play offs and going up I wouldn't class the first season as an attempt at promotion, more a fuck up by the club.

[Myles Francis]

Given our league position when he took over and the points deduction which stopped us from getting in the play offs and going up I wouldn't class the first season as an attempt at promotion, more a fuck up by the club.

Scratching my head a bit at this one. Yes, the position was a mess owing to the points deduction, but as we still had an opportunity to make the play-offs going into the final game of the season, I really don't know how you can claim it wasn't an &quotattempt at promotion&quot.

Anyway, on to the issue at hand....

I'm still not 100% in the Wilder Out camp but more weight is starting to be transferred to the foot which is there already. The injuries which were being held up as a mitigating factor have largely passed (to be replaced by new ones!!), yet has there been a noticeable improvement? Maybe in performances, but not in results. We've lost 10 games this season - the same as the bottom three. That to me suggests one thing at the moment: we are in serious danger of being sucked into a relegation battle.

Wilder can take huge credit for the progress the club has made on and off the field but, barring a run of games with a significant proportion of wins, I fear the time has come for a change.

[joepoolman]

At the risk of appearing a proper grump, I think the 'got us out of the Conference' loyalty bit is wearing too thin.

Like it or not, this is a world of continuous improvement. Lee Clark was doing a good job at Huddersfield, but was sacked and his successor achieved promotion. John Sheridan got Chesterfield out of L2 as champions, won the Paint cup &amp got relegated and was soon out of a job. Crawley and Stevenage got out of the Conference and shortly afterwards got into L1 and are doing very nicely thank you, on crowds that are half of ours.

CW has had support from the home crowd, brilliant away support, a budget that is amongst the best at this level and Executive support.

He should have done better since May 2010.

I think that's not a great comparison to make seeing as most people would still tell you that it was wrong to sack Clark. I'd give Wilder the season, I don't think there's anything to be gained from sacking the manager now, and I think at a time where managers only last an average of about 18 months, consistency is beneficial more often than not.
If Mr Lenegan does want to show the manager the door he might as well give him a few more weeks, seeing as a new manager can't put his stamp on the squad until January.

[GodalmingYellow]

At the risk of appearing a proper grump, I think the 'got us out of the Conference' loyalty bit is wearing too thin.

Like it or not, this is a world of continuous improvement. Lee Clark was doing a good job at Huddersfield, but was sacked and his successor achieved promotion. John Sheridan got Chesterfield out of L2 as champions, won the Paint cup &amp got relegated and was soon out of a job. Crawley and Stevenage got out of the Conference and shortly afterwards got into L1 and are doing very nicely thank you, on crowds that are half of ours.

CW has had support from the home crowd, brilliant away support, a budget that is amongst the best at this level and Executive support.

He should have done better since May 2010.

I think that's not a great comparison to make seeing as most people would still tell you that it was wrong to sack Clark. I'd give Wilder the season, I don't think there's anything to be gained from sacking the manager now, and I think at a time where managers only last an average of about 18 months, consistency is beneficial more often than not.
If Mr Lenegan does want to show the manager the door he might as well give him a few more weeks, seeing as a new manager can't put his stamp on the squad until January.

But a new manager might well benefit from seeing the existing players for a few weeks before making changes in January.

I can see no justification whatsoever for Wilder keeping his job. We are already well past the point of being able to realistically achieve automatic promotion, which was the target set for this season. We look nearer relegation than promotion, and bearing in mind there are 7 teams in promotion spots, and only 2 in the relegation spots, that is worrying indeed.

I don't know anyone who does not believe that we have a core of players capable of achieving promotion. If the players are good enough, and results are not achieved, it comes down to the manager and coaching staff.

[amershamwrighty]

Beautifully put, GY.

[Isaac]

I was always in the give it until christmas camp before, but my impression is that it is going to take a very good run to get us into a reasonable position before christmas, so if he was booted now, I wouldn't have any complaints. And I don't think Wilder could either, he's done a very good job for the club, particularly the first 3 years, but the results this season and the end of last have been awful. Apart from anything else I think things need freshening up.

However - I think there probably are reasons why the club might not want to sack Wilder right now, but we don't really know what these are unless we know his contract situation. So a few assumptions

1) We are at the wage cap limit
2) Wilder and coaches contribute to the wage.
3) Wilder and coaches are on a 1 year rolling contract
4) to sack them we would need to pay off 1 year of their contracts

So, if we sack Wilder, his salary doesn't disappear from the wage cap, which means we haven't actually got any money to get a replacement in. This is more significant if you also sack the coaching staff. Does this mean we'd be left with the choice of

a) Melville or Lewis (or Duberry?) as managers until the end of the season
b) Reduction of wage bill (the 6 month loan players presumably) to cover the new manager and not a great deal of wiggle room for new players/coaching staff.

So in effect you're weakening the squad to sack the manager - it may be this is a valid exercise (i.e. you'll get more benefit from a new manager than you'll lose by a weakened squad). However it might be that the club is looking at closer to the end of the season, given a fair few contracts are up then, as the time to make that change.

[SmileyMan]

Wilder was a vast improvement on the last few managers, which earned him a lot of credit.

The big problem is that as he's come up against bigger clubs with better resources (players, managers, scouts) the propensity for whatever system he's using to get 'found out' has increased - and he does have an unfortunate habit of stubbornly sticking to formations and players-in-certain-roles when it's clear that the opposition have worked out how to neutralise them.

[Werthers Original]

The big problem is that as he's come up against bigger clubs with better resources

If that were true it would be reasonable. But the trouble is we're regularly being out-thought and ouplayed by small clubs like Dagenham.