Suarez

[Radley Rambler]

I'd imagine that neither are racist. Merely two horrible individuals with little respect.

Did anyone on here ever see Darcus Howe run rings around Ron Atkinson in an interview following Ron's indiscretion on TV? I don't even think Ron is that nasty horrible individual without respect, but he did seem incredulous that what he thought and said was utterly unacceptable irrespective of what was meant. To my mind the very fact that Suarez thinks in this way and doesn't have the realisation that he cannot vocalise these thoughts - makes him a racist irrespective of what HE meant.

People who deplore racism cannot conceive the circumstance in which they'd ever use words that could discriminate in this way.

Words only have the meanings that people apply to them. Just because the majority apply one meaning to a word does not mean that everybody does.

The word 'negro' still appears in the dictionary and (in the dictionary I own) is not defined as an offensive term.

I think the problem comes with the intent behind any word. Was Alan Hansen trying to be offensive when he said 'coloured'? Was Saurez trying to offend Evra? Was Evra trying to be offensive when he called Saurez a 'South American' in retaliation?

If so, they are in the wrong. If not, they are ignorant of generally acceptable use of language and need educating.

A very good question and I read with interest (for once) what Wikipedia has to say on the subject, my conclusion is that it is still a matter of opinion but the term 'negro' is perhaps not as offensive as I thought it was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

In terms of the word 'coloured' or 'black', if describing an individual of that ethnicity, I would tend to use the latter but have used the former based on the assumption that I genuinely don't believe either description is offensive - I am happy to be re-educated before it comes back to bite me?

It is positive to consider how far football fans (in general) have come in the past 25 years. I recall standing on the London Road in the mid-eighties and almost to a man (or woman), the entire terrace would chant 'You Black B*stard' at opposition players without any redress from others. I'm ashamed to say I was one of those fans, my only defence at the time being my young age and a general belief that there was nothing wrong with it because it was all I had seen/understood at football games. 20 years later and I was captaining the Raging Fever Team in Kick Racism out of Football tournaments - you live and learn.

Given this general improvement, I am absolutely behind the FA in dishing out harsh penalties to players who are proven to have engaged in racist behaviour.

[Baboo]

It is positive to consider how far football fans (in general) have come in the past 25 years. I recall standing on the London Road in the mid-eighties and almost to a man (or woman), the entire terrace would chant 'You Black B*stard' at opposition players without any redress from others. I'm ashamed to say I was one of those fans, my only defence at the time being my young age and a general belief that there was nothing wrong with it because it was all I had seen/understood at football games. 20 years later and I was captaining the Raging Fever Team in Kick Racism out of Football tournaments - you live and learn.

I can't recall the LR almost to a man chanting You Black B*stard&quot. I know I never chanted such crap. I do recall the odd voice yelling &quot you black xxxxx &quot &amp I occassionally used to shout back &quotstop being racist&quot - but my bravery was not that great because I was usually too far away from the racist for him (never aware that it was a woman) to identify me.

[Kernow Yellow]

8 games is maybe a little harsh.

What surprises me is the Liverpool reaction though. Are they condoning the language that the player himself seems to admitted using?

The slating of the FA also seems a little over the top as those hearing the case were totaly indeopendent from the FA.

At the risk of being called a racist I would say there is no maybe about it and I'd swap &quotlittle&quot for &quotvery harsh&quot. But perhaps he's a secret member of the KKK and the authorities are out to get him whatever way possible. Anyway, precedent set. Or will matters change on appeal?

Is &quotnegrito&quot a term of race hate when spoken by a South American?

Evra has previously claimed that he has been racially abused - I don't know if he was or wasn't. But in 2006 the police found that the accused Steve Finnan (of Liverpool) was without blame &amp then there was that incident with the Chelsea groundsman in 2008.

If Suarez is really a nasty racist I'd say throw the book at him but if not show some commonsense and reasonable proportion in dishing out the punishment.

And if Evra is regularly being targeted and has the balls to do something about it - hats off to him.


Sits back and waits ...

Whatever history Evra does or doesn't have is completely irrelevant. Suarez has admitted using a term (negrito) referring to the colour of Evra's skin, which was obviously meant as derogatory - or was he just passing the time of day? I don't think so. That is, by definition, racist.

You could argue that the punishment is harsh if it is true that Suarez (for cultural reasons or otherwise) didn't realise that racist abuse was any worse than any other form of abuse - as some people, eg Gus Poyet, seem to be claiming. But whether that's true or not, I'm glad the FA has sent out a strong message.

I just hope that if John Terry is found to have done the same thing, he is punished just as harshly. And I certainly hope that he is not allowed to captain England until such time as he has been completely exonerated.

And one more thing - Liverpool's T-shirt tribute was completely inappropriate and frankly disgraceful. They should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. If they have a problem with the verdict, they should go through the usual channels of appeal.

[Mark G]

Suarez deserves the ban if he said/meant what has been put forward by the Disciplinary Panel. That said it appears Evra was dishing abuse out that day to Suarez, if the press reports (of both the original incident and Liverpool's response about Evra's own evidence) I've read are true (so 50/50 chance there then), is Evra going to be charged by the FA? If the FA are serious about respect and equality on the pitch, and it is true, then it is not acceptable for Evra to be abusive towards Suarez either. As I say it all depends on if this claim is true but if so, then he would deserve a ban himself of 4/5 games.

[Radley Rambler]

It is positive to consider how far football fans (in general) have come in the past 25 years. I recall standing on the London Road in the mid-eighties and almost to a man (or woman), the entire terrace would chant 'You Black B*stard' at opposition players without any redress from others. I'm ashamed to say I was one of those fans, my only defence at the time being my young age and a general belief that there was nothing wrong with it because it was all I had seen/understood at football games. 20 years later and I was captaining the Raging Fever Team in Kick Racism out of Football tournaments - you live and learn.

I can't recall the LR almost to a man chanting You Black B*stard&quot. I know I never chanted such crap. I do recall the odd voice yelling &quot you black xxxxx &quot &amp I occassionally used to shout back &quotstop being racist&quot - but my bravery was not that great because I was usually too far away from the racist for him (never aware that it was a woman) to identify me.

Despite my young age at the time (about 12 years old), I do recall it vividly and maybe it was several hundred fans around me then (left side LR behind the goal) rather than the whole terrace. I was 'following the older boys example' at the time probably because I (naively and stupidly) thought it was cool just like smoking (without having any concept of actually inhaling) also had a certain attraction at that age. It would have taken a lot of them chanting for me to have the confidence to follow at that age.

[GodalmingYellow]

Racism is surely not just about words used, it is about intent when using those words. Where there is no intent it is ignorance and stupidity and probably offensive. The aspect of offense caused is determined by the person being offended and whether they feel offended.

I've spoken to black friends about the use of the word coloured, and they have all given the same response that it is not racist, but it might be offensive to some and it is in the very least ignorant and outmoded.

In the Suarez case, I think there could be a case to argue that the word used was not racist in his normal culture and therefore he had no intent. That's quite difficult to prove one way or the other, and I think you have to take into account how Suarez was using the word negrito, which was clearly intended to cause offence, and therefore might be argued as being racist.

We don't want any racism anywhere in our culture, and I abhor discrimination of any kind, and so a penalty materially in excess of what might be given for seriously offensive language is appropriate. Given the fine line in determining if the intent was racist, and difficulty in proving that one way or the other, 8 games ban seems quite harsh. I think 4 games would have been appropriate based on the information that is in the public domain, together with a hefty fine and some enforced education. However there may of course be further information that we are not privvy to that justifies the heavy penalty. Had it been a white British player making the same remarks, there would have been no get out clause, and then even 8 games would have been a light punishment.

[Baboo]

And one more thing - Liverpool's T-shirt tribute was completely inappropriate and frankly disgraceful. They should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. If they have a problem with the verdict, they should go through the usual channels of appeal.

So they are not allowed to express an opinion in a free society? And yes, they are going through the usual channels of appeal.

[Snake]

I’ve had 48 hours now to reflect on things since getting back from Goodison Park on Wednesday night, and to be honest if Scousers can’t raise a more amusing chant than “Sheep, sheep, sheep shaggers

[Kernow Yellow]

And one more thing - Liverpool's T-shirt tribute was completely inappropriate and frankly disgraceful. They should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. If they have a problem with the verdict, they should go through the usual channels of appeal.

So they are not allowed to express an opinion in a free society? And yes, they are going through the usual channels of appeal.

If a football team (and multi-million pound international brand) en masse express an opinion, they need to be pretty careful what they're expressing an opinion about. Robbie Fowler was banned for wearing a T-Shirt in support of Liverpool Dockers, don't forget.

When that opinion seeks to create a noble cause out of someone who has been found guilty of racially abusing a fellow player, then it is well out of order and should be dealt with.

How would you feel if the Chelsea team all started wearing T-shirts in support of John Terry?

It's massively inappropriate, whatever their private thoughts on the matter. For Dalglish himself to do it was crass stupidity.

[Baboo]

And one more thing - Liverpool's T-shirt tribute was completely inappropriate and frankly disgraceful. They should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. If they have a problem with the verdict, they should go through the usual channels of appeal.

So they are not allowed to express an opinion in a free society? And yes, they are going through the usual channels of appeal.

If a football team (and multi-million pound international brand) en masse express an opinion, they need to be pretty careful what they're expressing an opinion about. Robbie Fowler was banned for wearing a T-Shirt in support of Liverpool Dockers, don't forget.

When that opinion seeks to create a noble cause out of someone who has been found guilty of racially abusing a fellow player, then it is well out of order and should be dealt with.

How would you feel if the Chelsea team all started wearing T-shirts in support of John Terry?

It's massively inappropriate, whatever their private thoughts on the matter. For Dalglish himself to do it was crass stupidity.

That's your opinion. I disagree. And yes, the Chelsea team have every right to be supportive of John Terry.
Plenty of people have had guilty verdicts overturned.

[Baboo]

Oh, forgot to add that Robbie Fowler should never have been banned for that T shirt imho.

[Kernow Yellow]

Anyone still feeling sorry for Suarez? Hopefully the published FA report will put an end to the sickening self-pity of Liverpool FC. On this issue at least.

[Baboo]

Anyone still feeling sorry for Suarez? Hopefully the published FA report will put an end to the sickening self-pity of Liverpool FC. On this issue at least.

Not sure sorry is the right word. But yes I feel he is hard done by. 8 games way ott. Evra threatened him, apparently but has not been charged with anything. I thought that this was unacceptable too.

[Kernow Yellow]

Anyone still feeling sorry for Suarez? Hopefully the published FA report will put an end to the sickening self-pity of Liverpool FC. On this issue at least.

Not sure sorry is the right word. But yes I feel he is hard done by. 8 games way ott. Evra threatened him, apparently but has not been charged with anything. I thought that this was unacceptable too.

You think an 8 game suspension is way ott for racially abusing an opponent 7 times in one game? And you think Evra should be charged for threatening to punch Suarez if he racially abused him again? Even though Evra didn't actually punch him? Jesus.

Frankly, given the fact that he has previously been banned for biting an opponent (not to mention the fact that he's just completed a ban for obscene gestures at supporters), I think his punishment is pretty lenient. Horrible piece of work, and an appalling role model for football-supporting kids everywhere.

[Baboo]

Anyone still feeling sorry for Suarez? Hopefully the published FA report will put an end to the sickening self-pity of Liverpool FC. On this issue at least.

Not sure sorry is the right word. But yes I feel he is hard done by. 8 games way ott. Evra threatened him, apparently but has not been charged with anything. I thought that this was unacceptable too.

You think an 8 game suspension is way ott for racially abusing an opponent 7 times in one game? And you think Evra should be charged for threatening to punch Suarez if he racially abused him again? Even though Evra didn't actually punch him? Jesus.

Frankly, given the fact that he has previously been banned for biting an opponent (not to mention the fact that he's just completed a ban for obscene gestures at supporters), I think his punishment is pretty lenient. Horrible piece of work, and an appalling role model for football-supporting kids everywhere.

No I don't think Evra should have been charged. I didn't actually say he should have been. i saw an article in the Times the other day by a writer who is pretty balanced (can't remember which one it was and I think I've thrown the paper out now) who put this view over.

Suarez might be a &quothorrible piece of work&quot as you say but you can't ban him on that basis can you? I cannot for one moment defend him for biting an opponent nor for what he did in the Evra incident. But I do think that given the circumstances 8 games is too much.