Are football fans over policed?
Are football fans over policed?
FSF says 'yes', plod says 'np', Rage Online says...
'np' = no problem?
Our recent tour to Scotland seemed overpoliced to me for a couple of friendlies.
At Dumbarton we were not allowed in the clubhouse on police advice, purportedly in case some Old Firm fans gatecrashed the game looking for trouble. The heating engineers arrived late, watched the first half and then presumably got bored and didn't return for the second half. Our man on a motorbike set off after the match, and as soon as he was on the public highway was stopped and breathalysed, supposedly on a police tip-off.
At Livingston we were allowed in the stadium bar, amazingly voted "Livingston bar of the year". Once in the ground, we were allocated the right hand end of the stand. Our Tifo group waved their flags, and set off one smoke bomb before kick-off. At which point several police and stewards appeared. Somehow they uncovered another three or four smoke bombs - although not on anybody's person. They were then each taken below the stand and searched, then let back up again. I think they were all threatened with ejection for breach of the peace, but as they are mostly smart enough not to actually do this, the police just kept a very close eye on them. I think police and stewards outnumbered them.
The police also took down all of their banners - which upset one Oxford fan who waved his coke bottle at a steward to indicate the Livi flags still displayed at the other end. The coke bottle ended up confiscated. After a few renditions at the top of "we paid for your hats", we also had our own two police officers join us to keep an eye on us.
Our recent tour to Scotland seemed overpoliced to me for a couple of friendlies.
At Dumbarton we were not allowed in the clubhouse on police advice, purportedly in case some Old Firm fans gatecrashed the game looking for trouble. The heating engineers arrived late, watched the first half and then presumably got bored and didn't return for the second half. Our man on a motorbike set off after the match, and as soon as he was on the public highway was stopped and breathalysed, supposedly on a police tip-off.
At Livingston we were allowed in the stadium bar, amazingly voted "Livingston bar of the year". Once in the ground, we were allocated the right hand end of the stand. Our Tifo group waved their flags, and set off one smoke bomb before kick-off. At which point several police and stewards appeared. Somehow they uncovered another three or four smoke bombs - although not on anybody's person. They were then each taken below the stand and searched, then let back up again. I think they were all threatened with ejection for breach of the peace, but as they are mostly smart enough not to actually do this, the police just kept a very close eye on them. I think police and stewards outnumbered them.
The police also took down all of their banners - which upset one Oxford fan who waved his coke bottle at a steward to indicate the Livi flags still displayed at the other end. The coke bottle ended up confiscated. After a few renditions at the top of "we paid for your hats", we also had our own two police officers join us to keep an eye on us.
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Beach Road End
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On the whole I would say yes they are over policed. I remember when we went down to Woking the season before last when we took over most of the ground. Vast number of police which shut down every bar in the town after the game. Neadless to say there wasn't even a sniff of trouble.
The police will always say no because, lets remember, they get paid more if more officers are required.
The police will always say no because, lets remember, they get paid more if more officers are required.
Yes, but in the main in that’s because football continues to attract a small (but significant) element of morons with a tendency towards violence.
I’ve always been of a view that during half time these individuals should be invited onto the pitch, given knives or any weapon of their choosing and battle it out with like minded opposition. After 10 minutes the dead onse would be carried away and the rest sprayed with an indelible dye that would mean they would be denied medical treatment on the NHS for any injuries sustained.
A tad right wing, but within weeks football hooliganism would have literally died out and the cost of policing eliminated (so meaning cheaper tickets and/or more money for the clubs).
Simples.
I’ve always been of a view that during half time these individuals should be invited onto the pitch, given knives or any weapon of their choosing and battle it out with like minded opposition. After 10 minutes the dead onse would be carried away and the rest sprayed with an indelible dye that would mean they would be denied medical treatment on the NHS for any injuries sustained.
A tad right wing, but within weeks football hooliganism would have literally died out and the cost of policing eliminated (so meaning cheaper tickets and/or more money for the clubs).
Simples.
Surely there are two distinct aspects to the notion of "over" policing. One refers to the basic presence and number of police - for which Snake's morons (ahem) mean a continued presence will and probably should remain.
The other refers to, for want of a better term, the intensity of what the police do, the treating of all footie fans as hooligans or potential hooligans, the way not their presence but their attitude creates tensions, the way (as in the Livi case) home and away fans are treated so visibly differently, etc, etc, etc.
For me, the presence of police per se is not an issue. Even in large numbers, if they conduct themselves sensibly - as I have seen happen many times - that is fine (so long as the cost of such an operation is judged proportionate to the perceived threat of disturbance). The issue of 'intensity', however, is the one I have a problem with, the one I think the Report was referring to and the one, I am sure, we can all quote examples of. That is where some police forces and too many individual coppers are still stuck in the 1980s. One of the problems is simply not knowing how you will be treated by police - and not just at away grounds in different parts of the country.
The other refers to, for want of a better term, the intensity of what the police do, the treating of all footie fans as hooligans or potential hooligans, the way not their presence but their attitude creates tensions, the way (as in the Livi case) home and away fans are treated so visibly differently, etc, etc, etc.
For me, the presence of police per se is not an issue. Even in large numbers, if they conduct themselves sensibly - as I have seen happen many times - that is fine (so long as the cost of such an operation is judged proportionate to the perceived threat of disturbance). The issue of 'intensity', however, is the one I have a problem with, the one I think the Report was referring to and the one, I am sure, we can all quote examples of. That is where some police forces and too many individual coppers are still stuck in the 1980s. One of the problems is simply not knowing how you will be treated by police - and not just at away grounds in different parts of the country.
Re:
Yes, but at what cost?"Snake" wrote:Yes, but in the main in that’s because football continues to attract a small (but significant) element of morons with a tendency towards violence.
I’ve always been of a view that during half time these individuals should be invited onto the pitch, given knives or any weapon of their choosing and battle it out with like minded opposition. After 10 minutes the dead onse would be carried away and the rest sprayed with an indelible dye that would mean they would be denied medical treatment on the NHS for any injuries sustained.
A tad right wing, but within weeks football hooliganism would have literally died out and the cost of policing eliminated (so meaning cheaper tickets and/or more money for the clubs).
Simples.
"I've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. "
It's not just football matches that are over-policed. Everything is over-policed these days. In fact I would go as far as saying that we are creeping towards a Police state.
So, I am socialist who stands up for what he believes in and attends many demonstrations in support of his berliefs (against war, the BNP, climate change etc.
. I am also a football supporter who attends many football games every year (mainly OUFC and mainly away as I live in Manchester).
Although both of these activities are completely legal and morally sound the Police regard them as suspicious. Now, they would argue that there are elements involved in both forms of activity that spoil it for everyone else and it is these elements they are after. But in my exprience, in both cases, everyone tends to get tarred with the same brush.
So, I am socialist who stands up for what he believes in and attends many demonstrations in support of his berliefs (against war, the BNP, climate change etc.
. I am also a football supporter who attends many football games every year (mainly OUFC and mainly away as I live in Manchester).Although both of these activities are completely legal and morally sound the Police regard them as suspicious. Now, they would argue that there are elements involved in both forms of activity that spoil it for everyone else and it is these elements they are after. But in my exprience, in both cases, everyone tends to get tarred with the same brush.
"I've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. "
Re:
Dunno really, but I'd pay a fiver to watch them kill and maim each other."tomoufc" wrote:Yes, but at what cost?"Snake" wrote:Yes, but in the main in that’s because football continues to attract a small (but significant) element of morons with a tendency towards violence.
I’ve always been of a view that during half time these individuals should be invited onto the pitch, given knives or any weapon of their choosing and battle it out with like minded opposition. After 10 minutes the dead onse would be carried away and the rest sprayed with an indelible dye that would mean they would be denied medical treatment on the NHS for any injuries sustained.
A tad right wing, but within weeks football hooliganism would have literally died out and the cost of policing eliminated (so meaning cheaper tickets and/or more money for the clubs).
Simples.
Re:
I expect you like the Go Compare adverts as well. No wonder this country is going down the shitter."Snake" wrote:Dunno really, but I'd pay a fiver to watch them kill and maim each other."tomoufc" wrote:Yes, but at what cost?"Snake" wrote:Yes, but in the main in that’s because football continues to attract a small (but significant) element of morons with a tendency towards violence.
I’ve always been of a view that during half time these individuals should be invited onto the pitch, given knives or any weapon of their choosing and battle it out with like minded opposition. After 10 minutes the dead onse would be carried away and the rest sprayed with an indelible dye that would mean they would be denied medical treatment on the NHS for any injuries sustained.
A tad right wing, but within weeks football hooliganism would have literally died out and the cost of policing eliminated (so meaning cheaper tickets and/or more money for the clubs).
Simples.
"I've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. "
Re:
Now that's going too far - I always have to grab the remote and use the mute button when that music starts when I'm in the middle of watching my favourite TV prog (Deal or no Deal"tomoufc" wrote:I expect you like the Go Compare adverts as well. No wonder this country is going down the shitter."Snake" wrote:Dunno really, but I'd pay a fiver to watch them kill and maim each other."tomoufc" wrote: Yes, but at what cost?
.Re:
Ha ha. I do that too."Snake" wrote:Now that's going too far - I always have to grab the remote and use the mute button when that music starts when I'm in the middle of watching my favourite TV prog (Deal or no Deal"tomoufc" wrote:I expect you like the Go Compare adverts as well. No wonder this country is going down the shitter."Snake" wrote: Dunno really, but I'd pay a fiver to watch them kill and maim each other.
"I've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. "
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Matt D
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dr. bob's point about the police's attitude is the key one for me. if i've had a bad experience about the way a football crowd has been policed, it's almost inevitably down to that. there can be an air of 'guilty until proven innocent' about some of the policing i've seen around football.
in terms of policing numbers, it seems to me that it's the sort of decision that's almost impossible to get right most of the time. if the police turn up in numbers expecting trouble and nothing happens: what a waste of money. if there's trouble and too few police to effectively contain it: they're naive, everyone knew there'd be trouble, etc. etc..
in terms of policing numbers, it seems to me that it's the sort of decision that's almost impossible to get right most of the time. if the police turn up in numbers expecting trouble and nothing happens: what a waste of money. if there's trouble and too few police to effectively contain it: they're naive, everyone knew there'd be trouble, etc. etc..
Re:
Yes, but..."Matt D" wrote:dr. bob's point about the police's attitude is the key one for me. if i've had a bad experience about the way a football crowd has been policed, it's almost inevitably down to that. there can be an air of 'guilty until proven innocent' about some of the policing i've seen around football.
in terms of policing numbers, it seems to me that it's the sort of decision that's almost impossible to get right most of the time. if the police turn up in numbers expecting trouble and nothing happens: what a waste of money. if there's trouble and too few police to effectively contain it: they're naive, everyone knew there'd be trouble, etc. etc..
If you go to enough games (especially away games) over a number of decades then it’s almost inevitable that the Babylon will get your goat occasionally because amongst the thousands of police officers who do their duty properly you will come across some that The Force call “bad apples
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Beach Road End
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Re:
"Snake" wrote:Yes, but..."Matt D" wrote:dr. bob's point about the police's attitude is the key one for me. if i've had a bad experience about the way a football crowd has been policed, it's almost inevitably down to that. there can be an air of 'guilty until proven innocent' about some of the policing i've seen around football.
in terms of policing numbers, it seems to me that it's the sort of decision that's almost impossible to get right most of the time. if the police turn up in numbers expecting trouble and nothing happens: what a waste of money. if there's trouble and too few police to effectively contain it: they're naive, everyone knew there'd be trouble, etc. etc..
If you go to enough games (especially away games) over a number of decades then it’s almost inevitable that the Babylon will get your goat occasionally because amongst the thousands of police officers who do their duty properly you will come across some that The Force call “bad apples