2008 - 2009 Accounts Now Available

[slappy]

Try again.

try page 15 (17 of the pdf) of the FA guidance
but what would they know?

[GodalmingYellow]

Try again.

try page 15 (17 of the pdf) of the FA guidance
but what would they know?

I've seen it already.

It is now 6 years out of date, and produced by Delloitte's, which means it is probably wrong.

As I said above, it's being argued by Man Utd, but what would they know?

And you still haven't dealt with the vouchers issue.

[slappy]

try page 15 (17 of the pdf) of the FA guidance
but what would they know?

I've seen it already.

It is now 6 years out of date, and produced by Delloitte's, which means it is probably wrong.

As I said above, it's being argued by Man Utd, but what would they know?

And you still haven't dealt with the vouchers issue.

Man Utd know nothing and were wasting their time. Deloitte presumably do know what they are talking about,
VAT rate change guidance page 33 I think clarifies that the date of payment is relevant to football season tickets.

What vouchers have to do with any of this I don't know. The only vouchers in my season ticket book have no face value and presumably have no VAT effect either when I bought the season ticket, or when I use one at the club shop for a 10% discount.

[ty cobb]

What's the source for believing that KT &amp CW have spent £800,000 less than Patto/Smith &amp Merry?

Losses under Merry and Patto were £800,000, if we're breaking even now then we're spending less and/or getting more money in...........aren't we?

I think the point that Mally may have been making was that it is possible that the similar or eveng reater losses could have been this year funded by the Whitehead transfer money, resulting in break even, in which case there would have been no real improvement.

If we take Kelvin Thomas at his word, and assume that OxVox have reported what he said correctly, the implication is that we are now breaking even, and have received the Whitehead money as well. If that is the case it would be quite some achievement by Kelvin Thomas.

Personally I suspect some of the Whitehead money will have been used to subsidise this season's spending. How much is impossible to say without further information.

The notes are quite clear - the Deano money is not inculded in the break even figures for this year.

And please don't ruin a very interesting thread by getting into a techy argument about VAT.

[GodalmingYellow]

try page 15 (17 of the pdf) of the FA guidance
but what would they know?

I've seen it already.

It is now 6 years out of date, and produced by Delloitte's, which means it is probably wrong.

As I said above, it's being argued by Man Utd, but what would they know?

And you still haven't dealt with the vouchers issue.

Man Utd know nothing and were wasting their time. Deloitte presumably do know what they are talking about,
VAT rate change guidance page 33 I think clarifies that the date of payment is relevant to football season tickets.

What vouchers have to do with any of this I don't know. The only vouchers in my season ticket book have no face value and presumably have no VAT effect either when I bought the season ticket, or when I use one at the club shop for a 10% discount.

Those that disagree know nothing.... I think Man Utd's accountants - Price Waterhouse Coopers, maybe a little ahead of either you or me. The fact that PWC and Delloittes differ, makes it very clear that the legislation is at best uncertain.

What has vouchers got to do with it? Don't you understand the vouchers legislation? Schoolboy stuff. Day 1 of training. Well OK maybe day 2 or 3.

A season ticket is arguably a voucher. In our case a book of vouchers. None of the vouchers in the book specifies a particular match. They merely provide a right to entry at an unspecified future match. That is by most definitions, a voucher.

Next you will be telling me that you've been claiming VAT on mobile phone top up cards on the date of purchase. The VATMan will be after you.

I don't see why you are bringing the vouchers at the back of the ST book into it, they have no relevance at all.

[Mally]

http://oxvox.yourcrm.co.uk/PageContent.aspx?id=79

I'll answer my own question here.

Fair play to OxVox for asking about this and fair play to KT and CW for manging to spend £800,000 less than Patto/Smith and yet get us in the play offs - I can see why CW may be a little annoyed given the bigger picture here.

What's the source for believing that KT &amp CW have spent £800,000 less than Patto/Smith &amp Merry?

Losses under Merry and Patto were £800,000, if we're breaking even now then we're spending less and/or getting more money in...........aren't we?

Firstly breaking even is at least second hand information and may not be true. Secondly how can KT be sure of this when the financial year in question had 3 months to run when he allegedly said this.

But putting that aside it is quite possible for the football spend to be exactly the same in 2007/08 and 2009/10 and the company loss to be much less due to a variety of reasons. The biggest likely difference between the years in question is gate receipts going up dramatically to bring about a situation where there was no cost control but increased revenues have helped stem the losses. Also remember that more than half the money the club spends isn't directly spent on players.

[Snake]

Agree with Mally.

Also worth noting is that this alleged break even figure is before the Deano money slipped quietly into IL’s back pocket plus at least one extra 10,000|| gate in the play-offs plus maybe a bonanza at Wembley.

I reckon we could even make £1m this year, and if we ended up in League II then WPL could sell as soon as the ST money is in over the summer (and maybe Constable gone for a few more hundred thousand). That way WPL could walk away having lost nothing on the club.

[GodalmingYellow]

Agree with Mally.

Also worth noting is that this alleged break even figure is before the Deano money slipped quietly into IL’s back pocket plus at least one extra 10,000|| gate in the play-offs plus maybe a bonanza at Wembley.

I reckon we could even make £1m this year, and if we ended up in League II then WPL could sell as soon as the ST money is in over the summer (and maybe Constable gone for a few more hundred thousand). That way WPL could walk away having lost nothing on the club.

It may well be possible to get those numbers to add up, but would someone buy the club with all the ST money gone, and potentially another £2m of debts?

In addition, I would hope that first dibs on the Whitehead money went to repay HMRC debts rather than Ian Lenagan.

[GodalmingYellow]

What's the source for believing that KT &amp CW have spent £800,000 less than Patto/Smith &amp Merry?

Losses under Merry and Patto were £800,000, if we're breaking even now then we're spending less and/or getting more money in...........aren't we?

Firstly breaking even is at least second hand information and may not be true. Secondly how can KT be sure of this when the financial year in question had 3 months to run when he allegedly said this.

But putting that aside it is quite possible for the football spend to be exactly the same in 2007/08 and 2009/10 and the company loss to be much less due to a variety of reasons. The biggest likely difference between the years in question is gate receipts going up dramatically to bring about a situation where there was no cost control but increased revenues have helped stem the losses. Also remember that more than half the money the club spends isn't directly spent on players.

Let's hope Kelvin's budgeting and cashflow forecasting is better than Nick Merry's.

[Mally]

Agree with Mally.

Also worth noting is that this alleged break even figure is before the Deano money slipped quietly into IL’s back pocket plus at least one extra 10,000|| gate in the play-offs plus maybe a bonanza at Wembley.

I reckon we could even make £1m this year, and if we ended up in League II then WPL could sell as soon as the ST money is in over the summer (and maybe Constable gone for a few more hundred thousand). That way WPL could walk away having lost nothing on the club.

It may well be possible to get those numbers to add up, but would someone buy the club with all the ST money gone, and potentially another £2m of debts?

In addition, I would hope that first dibs on the Whitehead money went to repay HMRC debts rather than Ian Lenagan.

If indeed the club still owe any money to HMRC. All we know is what the position was on 30th June 2009. It could have got a lot bigger or a lot smaller since then. Shouldn't somebody be asking them what the current status is? If OxVox can't do it then I think there's the odd shareholder on here who could ask the question at the AGM.

[scooter]

And please don't ruin a very interesting thread by getting into a techy argument about VAT.

Oh come on we haven't had a really good GY rant for a while and this one has the makings of a classic.

Just substitute tetchy for techy and sit back and enjoy.

[ty cobb]

What's the source for believing that KT &amp CW have spent £800,000 less than Patto/Smith &amp Merry?

Losses under Merry and Patto were £800,000, if we're breaking even now then we're spending less and/or getting more money in...........aren't we?

Firstly breaking even is at least second hand information and may not be true. Secondly how can KT be sure of this when the financial year in question had 3 months to run when he allegedly said this.

But putting that aside it is quite possible for the football spend to be exactly the same in 2007/08 and 2009/10 and the company loss to be much less due to a variety of reasons. The biggest likely difference between the years in question is gate receipts going up dramatically to bring about a situation where there was no cost control but increased revenues have helped stem the losses. Also remember that more than half the money the club spends isn't directly spent on players.

Hang on a sec - this is what KT the chairman and only director of our club has said - they were from minutes of a meeting with OxVox, given they all have to be signed off by the club it's hardly tittle tattle heard at the pub.

Yes gate receipts have gone up but not by £800,000 worth, I think the playing budget has been cut and by a lot and this is what CW is getting so annoyed about because he's getting far better results with less money.

[Brahma Bull]

As Ty confirms these minutes were passed and signed off by Kelvin Thomas, it isn't second hand information.

As for Mr Thomas' budgeting and cashflow forecasts, one would assume that as he actually 'drops' into the club now and again, he at least has some influence over them.

[Mally]

As Ty confirms these minutes were passed and signed off by Kelvin Thomas, it isn't second hand information.

As for Mr Thomas' budgeting and cashflow forecasts, one would assume that as he actually 'drops' into the club now and again, he at least has some influence over them.

So good to see that our INDEPENDENT supporters trust is making sure that the football club passes and signs off their meeting reports.

I'll make a note to bookmark this thread and take a look a year from now to see what the accounts actually say.

Football supporters generally and a supporters trust in particular should never take as gospel anything that a club chairman says as gospel truth, particularly when they are discussing a future event.

Kelvin Thomas seems to be doing a good job and certainly a lot better than his immediate predecessor but the only real evidence of this is in the accounts and the ones just published tell a different story. Bigger losses more debts and more dangerous creditors is what they say at the moment.

Going back to the original issue though my guess is that Merry spent somewhere in the region of £1million on the player budget and I would be very surprised if we haven't spent something similar this year. I can see no evidence of cost cuts anywhere at the club so I have to assume that if the club is anywhere near breaking even then this has to be from increased revenue but we won't know for sure for another year.

A clue though may come from KT's own reported and vetted words:

&quotThis turn-round is following success in increasing gate revenue and commercial activity since his, Chris Wilder’s, and David Jackson’s appointments.&quot

[slappy]

I think the difference in 2010 can be broken down into a number of areas:-
Better commercial work - sharing advertising and catering revenues with Stadco
Presumably a better take up of boxes this season
Higher average attendances, plus 2 home FA Cup ties with good crowds against Yeovil and Barrow
Tighter squad which has been limited at around 20 senior pros
Clearout of the overpaid players from Talbot, Smith, Patto in the league days - Yemi, Hutch, in particular were rumoured to be highly paid, but also Burnell, Day, Farrell, et al.